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Kihaps in ITF Tuls

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Original Message Post # 1
Fri 21st Mar 2008 04:26
Michael Munyon

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Greetings, A few of my friends on the East Coast (USA) stated to me that the ITF will be performing Kihaps in the Tuls. Can someone from the ITF Board please explain when this will come into effect and what caused us to include the kihaps in the tuls? Taekwon!
Michael Munyon, VI Dan
US-ITF Armed Forces Director
Serving America, Armed Forces and the ITF
Post # 2
Top Fri 21st Mar 2008 15:28
Jon_Mackey

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I heard this also, I can't proclaim to be a big fan of that to be honest.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 3
Top Fri 21st Mar 2008 20:31
Vaughan Buxton

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I agree, I did hear they were thinking about putting this into the Tuls, but same as Mr Mackey, I'm not in full agreement with this, more like Tang Soo Do or Karate!

TK
Post # 4
Top Fri 21st Mar 2008 21:57
Michael Munyon

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Greetings,

My earlier days of training in "TKD" we did the Chang Hon patterns with the kihaps. Granted, this was prior to my ITF days. With that being said, all the instructors I had back then all had kihaps in them. So, did we originally have them in the patterns, then took them out and recently decided to put them back in?

Just curious.

TaeKwon!
Michael Munyon, VI Dan
US-ITF Armed Forces Director
Serving America, Armed Forces and the ITF
Post # 5
Top Sat 22nd Mar 2008 02:31
Nick Malefyt

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Taekwon,

I started with them in 1980 and liked it

I stopped doing them in '96 and liked it

We started doing it again this year and I am starting to like it again

Side note - When I had Master Rai out here in November. '07, the ITF had them worked out through 2nd Dan. If anyone wants I can post where they are up to there?

Nick Malefyt
Post # 6
Top Sat 22nd Mar 2008 08:00
Bob Borja

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Hello Mr. Malefyt,
Yes, please do post them. Thank you.

                                                           Vincit qui se vincit.                                                                  
                                             He conquers who conquers himself.                                                     

Post # 7
Top Sat 22nd Mar 2008 14:41
Jon_Mackey

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Yes please Mr Malefyt!

And I agree, the Kihaps were brought originally from the Karate Kata that General Choi studied before he designed the Chang Hon patterns. My feeling is its a step backwards re-introducing them as its away from Japanese Karate we should be going!

They have their place in team patterns as part of the over all display, but thats it!

Taekwon
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 8
Top Sun 23rd Mar 2008 00:04
Nick Malefyt

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From President Choi's seminar in Amsterdam, Holland October 3-5, 2007. These notes were provided to me by Master Parm Rai in November of '07:
 
C-J #17
D-G #8 and #17
D-S #6 and #22
W-H #12
Y-G #24 #27 and #36
J-G #12
T-G #29
H-R #14 and #25
C-M #9 (on the execution of the knife hand guarding block) and on #19 (on the landing)
K-G #23 and #27
P-E #12 and #30
G-B #19 and #28
 
Hope this helps!
 
Nick
 
Post # 9
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 00:05
Master Rai

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Taekwon

I can shed some light to this topic. The Ki-haps were spoken about in great detail at recent seminars and meetings. Master Choi informed me that Gen. Choi always liked the Ki-haps. The problem became when stuents started to do different types of Ki-haps. What I mean by that was that they started to sound different. The Ki-hap should come from the stomach and should be short and explosive. For some reason they lost their purpose and Gen. Choi decided to take them out. Master Choi indicated that Gen. Choi always spoke about them and wished they would return. We have decided to place them in movements that Gen. Choi had them in. They are being introduced at seminars. Master Choi is not only adding the Ki-haps back but will also be talking about them and how they should sound. This is very important. I know we did them in Holland last year and they sounded great. I remember teaching and it brought energy into the gym. They will be re-introduced but it will take time to teach everyone. Right now it is acceptable to use the Ki-haps if they have been taught by the instructors Master Choi has authorized to teach them.

Taekwon
Master Parm Rai
Post # 10
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 05:44
Michael Munyon

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Good info and stuff we were not previously prevy to. Thanks Master Rai.
Michael Munyon, VI Dan
US-ITF Armed Forces Director
Serving America, Armed Forces and the ITF
Post # 11
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 11:24
Glen Jones

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Master Rai

Yes Master Choi used them in the Australian seminars and they cume back to our club along with different facings ( half and full) for certain blocks.

Sorry But I for one will not be changing anything and have not been doing Ki-Haps.

This is what happens when such groups break up ( different ITF groups) makes a sham of ITF. Take a look at Kyokushin Karate Mor groups than you can poke a stick at and all do different things.

Thank you sir

Glen
Post # 12
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 13:49
Master Rai

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Sir;

I'm not sure what you mean ny different facngs (half and full). I know for a fact that Pres. Choi has not changed any technical details of Taekwon-Do. He is a strictler when it come to preserving his fathers dreams. He is however cleared up some names of movements which I and a few other senior masters have seen seen how Gen. Choi had written them. I remember learning the Ki-haps when I began my Taekwon-Do so therefore I know they were in Taekwon-Do. The half and full facing positions have not been changed from the way Gen. Choi had them. I'll give you an example of clearing up a name of a movement. In Pattern YOO-SIN, movement #2 and 3 say execute an angle punch. Master Choi has now called that a REAR punch as clearly you are punching to the rear and this technique is not the same as the angle punch performed in the 6th pattern. I was lucky writings of Gen. Choi when he was designing these patterns. Master Choi has these writings. It's funny how even Gen. Choi had written rear punch for this movement. Master Choi trys to explain these details at the seminars. I know we will be having a technical page on this web site. Once that's up, Technical questions will be welcomed and cleared up. That's the beautyb of Taekwon-Do. You never complete your learning, theres always something to learn. I am very fortunate that I get to spend alot of time with Maste Choi and am prive to alot of Taekwon-Do knowledge. We are always looking for instructors that would like to travel with Master Choi to assist in seminars. You learn alot when you travel as an assistant. I remember travelling with Gen. Choi as an assistant to France, and my did I learn alot. If anyone is interested to assist they can contact me and then they will travel with Master Choi and his assistant first. Once Master Choi feels they are ready to be an assistant then that instructor can travel with Master Choi alone. This is imortant. I remember Gen. Choi and Master Choi telling me that the assistant that travels with them represents them and thus must be knowledgeable in Taekwon-Do. I know I'm mumbling and off topic but thought I'd throw it out there incase anyone is interested.

Yours in Taekwon-Do

Master Parm Rai
Master Parm Rai
Post # 13
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 13:57
Michael Boik
Joined: 15/04/2007
Topics: 11 Replies: 35
Quote from - 24th Mar 2008 11:24 View
Master Rai

Yes Master Choi used them in the Australian seminars and they cume back to our club along with different facings ( half and full) for certain blocks.

Sorry But I for one will not be changing anything and have not been doing Ki-Haps.

This is what happens when such groups break up ( different ITF groups) makes a sham of ITF. Take a look at Kyokushin Karate Mor groups than you can poke a stick at and all do different things.

Thank you sir

Glen
glen,
 
Different facings for blocks have always been there. Was it a matter of change or a matter correction in how the blocks were done?
Taekwon!!

Mike

www.drysdaletkd.com

Post # 14
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 15:18
Michael Boik
Joined: 15/04/2007
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Quote from Master Rai - 24th Mar 2008 00:05 View
Taekwon

I can shed some light to this topic. The Ki-haps were spoken about in great detail at recent seminars and meetings. Master Choi informed me that Gen. Choi always liked the Ki-haps. The problem became when stuents started to do different types of Ki-haps. What I mean by that was that they started to sound different. The Ki-hap should come from the stomach and should be short and explosive. Taekwon

I have to agree. This is true especially in open tournaments where the competitor is screaming like their leg was cut off. I first learned my patterns with Kiaps in them, altough they were at the beginning and end of the pattern. Personnally, I don't understand why many are having a problem with this. Did they have a problem when Gen. Choi removed the Kiaps?

 
Mike
Taekwon!!

Mike

www.drysdaletkd.com

Post # 15
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 16:04
Jon_Mackey

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Master Rai,
It is funny you should mention the new labelling of rear punch! This morning I was tidying up my performance of Yoo Sin with a 5th degree here in Dublin and I asked the question - why is it angle punch if we are punching behind? he said because General Choi said so!
Calling it rear punch makes more sense.

He wasn't aware of the reintroductions of the Kihaps, he thought they were a great idea. He said, in patterns we are supposed to be mid battle, the kihap brings intensity and energy to the movement.

Taekwon!
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 16
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 09:35
Glen Jones

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I will give the examples passed on to me.

Walking stance inner and outer forearm blocks: always done in full facing. ie. Your centre line is facing straight ahead.

Now we are doing these movements in half facing, this I believe is what Master Choi and master nicholes introduced.

Glen
Post # 17
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 10:42
Jon_Mackey

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Thats how its always been! Inner and outer forearm blocks are half facing position.

For example #9 Chon Ji- inner forearm middle block, half facing

Do-San #1 outer forearm high side block, half facing

Do you have or can you get your hands on one of General Choi's encyclopediae? They are all detailed in there.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 18
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 11:15
Master Rai

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Glenn

Mr. Mackey is correct. Those movements are half facing.

Taekwin
Master Parm Rai
Post # 19
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 11:21
Mr Snow

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We have always done the blocks half facing apart from the odd few - GM CHOY of the UK was very hot on this and attention to detail so its ingrained in us, I thought it was always this way not somthing that is new :-(

Not sure I like the Ki-ups in patterns at all, Master Rai can you let us know if members will be downgraded at exams if they do not incorporate them in future?

Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 20
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 12:19
Bob Borja

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Hello,

This information on Kiya additions within Tuls is useful.

This information, however, was already available to some at least as early as October of 2007. I understand that Taekwon-do in our Federation is “evolving” and that surely much discussions and considerations preceded the decision to add Kiyas. As a trainer who conscientiously strives to keep abreast of developments, I would add that it would have been more appropriate for member ISDs and INOs & individually registered members to have received this information promptly and officially, as with the annual payment reminder via an E-mail; as opposed to chance discovery on this Forum because this topic just happened to come up and Mr. Malefyt was kind enough to provide the information.

Just imagine the consequence of three out of five referees who know about these Kiya additions (or not) judging a Tul competition with only one of the two competitors aware of the changes; and, that the resulting penalized competitor over this topic was you or your student.

This is not a criticism, but rather a suggestion on information flow with future changes.

Thank you.

                                                           Vincit qui se vincit.                                                                  
                                             He conquers who conquers himself.                                                     

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