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Choong Moo

Movement clarification
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Original Message Post # 1
Thu 28th May 2009 19:29
Christofer Zorn

CAN-4-1027
Joined: 20/10/2008
Topics: 2 Replies: 4
I was teaching on Tuesday and was asked by one a student what the practical use of one of the movements in Choong Moo was.  According to the book, the 28th movement is as follows:

28. Move the left foot to B forming a left walking stance toward B while executing an upward block to B with a twin palm.

The question was "What are you doing with this move?".  I checked the book and that move indicated that it was blocking a dual attack, a punch and a sidekick by two attackers, which really seems impractical and unrealistic.  For my testing, Master Rai was quite adamant on understanding what the movements did, so I was hoping for some clarification.

I would prefer only serious answers as I'm honestly looking for a logical answer to provide this student.

Christofer Zorn (IV DAN, Instructor)
Post # 2
Top Thu 11th Jun 2009 20:05
Jon_Mackey

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Hello sir,

As with all movements in all martial arts, they are presented as options that you can use in various situations. If you find the said block impractical well so be it, that is your position or opinion. What General Choi didn't do was dictate that each block MUST be used for X,Y and Z I prefer to think what he did was provide options. Whether you make it work is up to you.

SlŠn
:)
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 3
Top Fri 12th Jun 2009 13:56
Christofer Zorn

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Topics: 2 Replies: 4
Thank you for your response Mr Mackey, but I disagree with your position.  Although it is important to have 'interpretation' of a movement, it is of higher importance to have an 'application' for the movement.  If there were no application for any of the movements we were executing, then we would essentially be performing some sort of interpretive dance.

Not being able to explain to one's students what the practical application of the movements is, in my opinion, an enormous shortcoming of an instructor.  Rather than telling someone that 'this is the way it is because General Choi provides us options' either illustrates that an instructor cannot interpret what a movement can or should be used for, or illustrates a 'lemming' like following, where we are performing movements because we are instructed to do so with no regard for how they are used.

I still maintain that having two people attack at such an angle as to block a punch and a kick with each individual hand is impractical, not to mention that you're essentially lifting both techniques into your own face.


Post # 4
Top Sat 13th Jun 2009 17:55
Jon_Mackey

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Quote from Christofer Zorn - 12th Jun 2009 13:56 View
Thank you for your response Mr Mackey, but I disagree with your position.  Although it is important to have 'interpretation' of a movement, it is of higher importance to have an 'application' for the movement.  If there were no application for any of the movements we were executing, then we would essentially be performing some sort of interpretive dance.

Not being able to explain to one's students what the practical application of the movements is, in my opinion, an enormous shortcoming of an instructor.  Rather than telling someone that 'this is the way it is because General Choi provides us options' either illustrates that an instructor cannot interpret what a movement can or should be used for, or illustrates a 'lemming' like following, where we are performing movements because we are instructed to do so with no regard for how they are used.

I still maintain that having two people attack at such an angle as to block a punch and a kick with each individual hand is impractical, not to mention that you're essentially lifting both techniques into your own face.


Mr Zorn,

Sir, of course they are options. Would you be suggesting that this is the only correct way to block such an attack? Of course not. Therefore they are indeed options. Same as the outer forearm low block and the knife hand low block are two different options to deal with a similar attack.

The twin palm upward block is in essence not a block anyway. It is a deflection technique. A deflection technique can be used at any time if permissible to the situation. It doesn't matter if it's a kick or a punch or a knife attack, the important part is the deflection and not the tool used to hit you. To focus on the application and not the actual movement is a mistake. There are also palm down ward blocks, again options, and maybe you're perfered option as you have concerns about the upward block deflecting towards the face.

In my humble opinion the  most honest thing an instructor can do for a student is to provide deflections and blocks as options, if we have no options we have no choice, we have no chance, my perfered option is to run

Think outside the box

 

 

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 5
Top Mon 15th Jun 2009 14:28
Christofer Zorn

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Joined: 20/10/2008
Topics: 2 Replies: 4
I'm obviously not getting anywhere with the forums as all suggestions posted have done nothing to explain or answer my original question.  I'll email Master Rai directly and repost his solution.

Regurgitation of the 'same old opinions' (like that of 'because my instructor says so it must be right') is something that MUST leave Taekwon-do.  This does nothing for free thought and severly impacts how a student learns or reacts.  I worry that we're short changing students due to the unwillingness to question unknowns and to rather 'assume' what things are for.

Just because it's easier to assume than to question does not always provide a proper answer.
Post # 6
Top Mon 15th Jun 2009 23:52
Jon_Mackey

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Mr Zorn, you obviously fail to see my point completely.

Good luck with your search for the truth.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 7
Top Thu 2nd Jul 2009 15:33
Christofer Zorn

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Topics: 2 Replies: 4
Just a follow up ... I emailed this to Master Rai on Tuesday June 16th, and have not heard back ...

dateTue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:56 AM



Master Rai,

I'm sorry to email you directly, but I'm unaware of who is now the lead technical consultant who should be answering this type of question.  I posted this question to the forums on the website, but have had little relevant response (http://www.itf-administration.com/forum/threads.asp?forum_urn=105&t_urn=9869).

I was asked by a student recently what the practical application of a movement in Choong Moo was.  According to the Book, the 28th movement is as follows:

Move the left foot to B forming a left walking stance toward B while executing an upward block to B with a twin palm.

Her question was 'what are you doing with this block?'.  I advised her that I was unsure, but would find out.  According to the Book, it is a lifting defense to two angled attackers, one with a punch and the other with a sidekick.  I didn't think that was a practical solution as, in the consensus of the Instructors at our club, one would essentially be lifting a technique that was not thrown to the face into one's own face.

As mentioned, the forum provided no solution other than 'blocks provide options', so I was wondering if I could ask for your interpretation of this movement, so I can provide the student with a logical application of this block.  Furthermore, if you respond by email rather than in the forums, could I please post it to the site as the lack of responses (to me) illustrates perhaps a confusion for this movement.

Thank you in advance.

Christofer Zorn (IV Dan, Phoenix Taekwon-Do, Pickering Ontario)

Post # 8
Top Fri 3rd Jul 2009 15:27
Mark Skyrme

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I agree Mr Mackey, there can be many variations on a technique to fit multiple situations. General Choi also stated "if it works its good".

That said you can also overcome a lot of flaws in a technique with sheer power, I think that is why my joint manipulation seems to work better on a smaller / weaker opponent.

Mr Zorn, I have access to a great book published by Master Hogan here in the UK. I have taken the liberty to include a couple of images that offer an alternative. However I am sure Master Rai will give you a definitive answer when he replies.

 

Choong-Moo Movement 28

Hope that's of use

Taekwon

facile est inventis addere.
it is easy to add to things already invented.
www.tkd.co.uk

Post # 9
Top Mon 6th Jul 2009 12:56
Christofer Zorn

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Joined: 20/10/2008
Topics: 2 Replies: 4

Mr. Zorn

 

I am sorry for the late reply. I was in England for the senior seminar and then just got really busy with my work upon my return and various other Taekwon-Do activities.  Anyhow the answer to your question is as follows.  Mr. Mckay is correct in his interpretation of the twin palm upward block.

 

However to explain the block to your student, you should tell them that it is a deflection for two attacks.  The attacks donít necessary have to be a punch and a side kick.  They can be variations of one person doing a twin punch to your rib area or two people attacking from side front.  The important thing is that it is a block for two attacks.

 

Taekwon

 

Master Rai

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