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Is Taekwondo becomming more like Shotokan Karate

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Original Message Post # 1
Sat 22nd Mar 2008 10:39
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
Hello everyone
I realy cant believe some of our stances that were once full facing have now become half facing and also we kneed to kihap when turning and during patterns.Dead
Also try doing a pattern against opponents, not much chop at all. Watched a Go Kan Ryu demo on the TV, it was just fantastic showed how kata can be used for real life defence. What are we learning??
Glen
Post # 2
Top Sat 22nd Mar 2008 11:33
Mr Snow

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Quote from - 22nd Mar 2008 10:39 View
Hello everyone
I realy cant believe some of our stances that were once full facing have now become half facing and also we kneed to kihap when turning and during patterns.Dead
Also try doing a pattern against opponents, not much chop at all. Watched a Go Kan Ryu demo on the TV, it was just fantastic showed how kata can be used for real life defence. What are we learning??
Glen
 
Sir there are a number of reasons this has happened and I can only quote what I have learnt since Jan 86, The stances where half facing are done this way to limmit the force of impact should the blow be mistimed also many stances are half facing only on blocks except one or two other tecniques like palm pushing etc.
 
You state in patterns no chop at all this would be as we do not use a chopping motion but more cientific learning ie waist twist, a chopping motion will not protect the limb when blocking where as the way we execute blocks all have a twist on the end of them to minimise injury to the blockers limb.
 
As to self defence well all tuls have fab self defence in them - buy Mr Anslows book and many doors will open for you..
 
Regarding Ki-Up when turning - Either i am out of date or this is just your coach or org  teaching this way.
 
Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 3
Top Sat 22nd Mar 2008 13:13
Jon_Mackey

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Joined: 08/07/2007
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For me and this is only my personal opinion, Patterns represent our Taekwon-Do identity, they are a sequence of very beautiful movements, they are a cardio workout, they are good for certain core strengths and static flexibility. Whether something is half or full facing, walking stance or L stance, this is only relevant to its asthetic beauty and the fact a certain movement is done because thats the way General Choi designed and taught it.

For self defence, i've always relied on my inate ability to kick the snot out of someone. A real full flight physical assualt will not look like a pattern. For self defence I would look for answers from a person who has walked the walk, someone one who has fought the fight and learned from it. So whether a kihap is done, or a movement is in a certain stance means more, to me, about its asthetic beauty as opposed to any real life fight situation.

Just my thoughts!
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 4
Top Sun 23rd Mar 2008 00:23
Nick Malefyt

USA-6-1015
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 2 Replies: 50
Regarding patterns... to me sine wave, intermediate hand positioning, and kicking will always seperate ITF Taekwon-Do from Japanese Karate.

On the overall subject...as Master Rai always says, ITF Taekwon-Do is constantly evolving. Hopefully the evolution enhances the practical application of fundamental movements and does not set them backwards. Knowing the Master's who work on such changes I am confident they are making them with practicality in mind.

Think about the self-defense techniques against a knife that are shown in the encyclopedia - not very effective today. However that is not to say that ITF TKD does not have applicable techniques to deal with an armed attacker. I have cross trained in several "bladed" systems and most of the techniques employed can be found in ITF TKD.

To me changes will be embraced by some and not by others - bottom line if it works for you use it. If not discard it (but not in terms of grading)

Nick Malefyt, V Dan
www.allstartkd.com (new website coming)
Post # 5
Top Sun 23rd Mar 2008 02:04
Jon_Mackey

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Quote from Nick Malefyt - 23rd Mar 2008 00:23 View
Regarding patterns... to me sine wave, intermediate hand positioning, and kicking will always seperate ITF Taekwon-Do from Japanese Karate.

On the overall subject...as Master Rai always says, ITF Taekwon-Do is constantly evolving. Hopefully the evolution enhances the practical application of fundamental movements and does not set them backwards. Knowing the Master's who work on such changes I am confident they are making them with practicality in mind.

Think about the self-defense techniques against a knife that are shown in the encyclopedia - not very effective today. However that is not to say that ITF TKD does not have applicable techniques to deal with an armed attacker. I have cross trained in several "bladed" systems and most of the techniques employed can be found in ITF TKD.

To me changes will be embraced by some and not by others - bottom line if it works for you use it. If not discard it (but not in terms of grading)

Nick Malefyt, V Dan
www.allstartkd.com (new website coming)

Hi Mr Malefyt,

You are dead right, there are strikes and techniques within our patterns that are exceptionally useful. Knee strikes, elbow strikes, eye raking etc. The techniques are there. They just need to be trained differently - as you say our training and Taekwon-Do is constantly evolving.
Taekwon
Jon
 
ps - where's Marvin Paelez at? is he still training? I mailed him, hoping he'd sign up.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 6
Top Sun 23rd Mar 2008 03:03
Nick Malefyt

USA-6-1015
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 2 Replies: 50
Jon,
 
EM Dr. Szostek about Marvin. I have not heard from him in about a year - but I believe Doc speaks with him on occasion.
 
Nick
Post # 7
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 10:35
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
Mr snow

When I said no chop I ment the patterns wern't much use ( not chopping motion).

Have not heard of Mr Anslow, do you have any information on his book?

Regarding Ki-Up, several of our students went to Master Choi's seminar in Adelaide (Australia) I did not go, the were shown to ki-up when turning whilst doing movements up and down the dojang. Also at certain places in patterns you are to ki-up.

I teach what I'm told to teach but must admit to doing things the old way, I don't set a great example but I believe martial arts is a personal thing and only you do what you do. As the great Wing Chun Grandmaster told my Wing Chun teacher, we do not teach people to become robots.

Will have a look at your web site. My instructor is Mr Noel Keating 6th Degree former Australian ITF coach.

Kind regards Sir

Glen
Post # 8
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 12:21
Mr Snow

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Hi Glen, I meant no offence but am not aware of the ki-up in patterns on turning, Perhaps some one out there can confirm this or not.

Asto the chopping thing I was confused as I thought that you were stating the block should be a chopping motion, I have seen this used many times as I have two 5th Degree Friends who are shotakhan instructors, they seem to chop opposed to block as we do.

Mr Anslows book 'Ch'ang Hon Tae Kwon-Do Hae Sul' Real Applications to ITF patternsns Vol:1 it will not teach you anything NEW but will open the doors to the way you and your students think about the patterns. It did for us:-)

I have sent the link: once in the site click on the book saying the above
http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/

Hope that helps - Its a good book you can buy from amazon I think.

Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 9
Top Mon 24th Mar 2008 14:17
Mr Snow

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glen
check out the feed back section they discuss the ki-ups you asked about.
Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 10
Top Tue 25th Mar 2008 09:40
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
Thank you Mr Snow

Will take the time to have a look at this site.

Very nice to comunicate with you sir.

Regards Glen
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