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ITF Patttern Event at tournaments wrong

'Playing devils advocat here'
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Original Message Post # 1
Tue 1st Jul 2008 12:14
Mr Snow

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Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 58 Replies: 164

I have been part of the ITF for nearly 10 years - Excellent organisation but I have one gripe I want to share and voice to see what others think.

ITF Tournaments for 'TUL' is incorrect as many GB ITF events I have been to, the patterns are marked pooly and normally you look and think what were they looking at - Now befor you all jump on my back let me explain. In ITF  worlds and europeans you mark on tecnique, power, balance etc yet UK events that say they are ITF just raise a hand and say 'Hon, Chon' but many times those versed in ITF judging look and think 'What the heck were they looking at'
The LTSI has a system that is as far as we are concerned 100% fair, We mark the competitors on a 20 point system, I.E. if you are a Black Belt your mark will be 8 and 10, All are now marked one at a time only.
In Black Belt section All competitors start at 10 and points are deducted when mistakes are made, so example joe blogs comes up makes 7 seperate mistakes he gets 9.3.
So you are thinking it must takes ages to run the event, Not really as top 4 scores are taken to winnning medals but if you get lets say -
two  9.6 - play off for gold and silver has to happen (Two tuls to decide)
five 8.5  - Play off for Bronze medals.
With the current system being used by UK groups just raising the arms I personally think it is very unfair as if you get two top competitors up one loses out when the way we do it he is still in the running to win the silver, Also umpires have to know there stuff and no one can blagg it.
Any thoughts on this topic? be niceApprove
Post # 2
Top Wed 2nd Jul 2008 00:20
Chris Peel

Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 0 Replies: 16
I agree Mr Snow, we used to do something similar before joining the ITF.  When ever we mentioned this we were always told "It's exactly the same for sparring, the 2 best fighters could meet in the first round"
Post # 3
Top Wed 2nd Jul 2008 00:29
Mr Snow

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Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 58 Replies: 164
Sir, I personally think the UK events should adopt this again, (BUTF) use same system it would sharpen all our skills when judging tuls plus its fairer way for all competitors. I know the worlds and major events have to be done other way but UK ones should use this system then some would not get cheated from placements.

LTSI are leaning towards going ITF 100% now days and NON ITF'ers are becoming less at our events, but our TUL system will have to stay in place as it is the fairest system by far if you ask me.
As to sparring that is tougth luck I am affraid providing theres no match fixing going on.... We use a computer program so no cheating ever (Put in a name and deatils and system matches up). The program will be launched and sold on our site soon as commisioned by us.

Tae Kwon.
Post # 4
Top Thu 3rd Jul 2008 03:08
Mark Skyrme

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Joined: 10/01/2007
Topics: 41 Replies: 148
Hello from South Korea... ITF and WTF working as one.

Just adding a quick note, the ITF has developed an electronic scoring system, the sparring module was showcased at the 2007 ITF World Championships. The complete system will include Pattern/Tul, Special, Power as well as the Sparring including the ability to download competitor details with pictures from the online registration and draw system also used for this event.

This system follows the ITF rules as laid down by the tournament committee.

Completly wireless this system should be available later this year, keep an eye on this site for more details.

Mark Skyrme

I think you will find the raising of the hand is used to speed up decisions on the patterns for local tournaments. Judging will always be from the individual prospective of each judge, and as long as it remains constant then its fair for all.

As with all knockout systems they are only designed to find the best competitor in the group. Bit harsh if the number 2 meets the winner in the first round, but that the luck of the draw...

facile est inventis addere.
it is easy to add to things already invented.

Post # 5
Top Fri 4th Jul 2008 09:25
Max Verzijlbergen

Joined: 16/06/2008
Topics: 0 Replies: 1

Dear Mr Snow,

I understand your point. But as seen from the perspective of the judges, which opinion should be neutral, it is the quickest but still a fair way to judge the patterns. Because as a judge you will never know who will be the best in that poule.

Deducting points is a good system aswell. But it takes more time to judge. Because you have to decide how many points you deduct for a fault. And it is still possible to cheat, as the judge can deduct more or less points for a fault than other judges.

In The Netherlands each school has to bring their own judge to a tournament. His decisions in the tournament will be based on the teachings of the instructor, and regulations of the national organization. This doesnt always work well, as there are multiple organizations within the country.

At last i would like to say that the deducting-point-system is not more fair than raising-hands-system, but it gives more chance to the participater to win the tournament.
The same thing goes for sparring which works with a knock-out system aswell. If they would count the points that were made during the match, then the winner should be the person with highest score. But then he would have to fight all participaters in his poule for a fair score.

That is my opinion.


Max Verzijlbergen

~You haven't failed, untill you quit trying~
Post # 6
Top Fri 4th Jul 2008 16:26
Mr Snow

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Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 58 Replies: 164
Thanks for your reply Sir,
We all have our own thoughts - Hence why I asked, I personally like the point system as it makes you work harder by having to spot mistakes made. I agree with most of the points made already just personally like the point system better.
Tae Kwon
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