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Kihaps in ITF Tuls

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Post # 21
Top Wed 26th Mar 2008 00:14
Master Rai

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Topics: 1 Replies: 31
Mr. Borja

Nice to hear from you. I hope all is well in Germany. In reply to your question. The Ki-haps in the patterns will be posted officially on the ITF web site. They have not been posted yet as we need to re-introduce them enough firstly across the globe. This is why they have been shown at the seminars. You are right when you say some knew as of October 2007. This is because as we teach them, students are spreading the word. As you can imagine not everyone learned the Kihaps when they were taught and therefore if they were announced before being shown to parts of the world, I am sure we would have problems. I know Mr. Malefyt has announced where they are in the patterns. He knows them because I was at a seminar in New Jersey in Novemeber and demonstrated the Kihaps there. As far as judging is concerned, there is no deduction for the use or non-use of the Ki-Haps. When Master Nicholls returns from Hong Kong and Ireland, we will post everything on the web site. I hope this helps to clearify.

Taekwon
Master Parm Rai
Post # 22
Top Wed 26th Mar 2008 01:46
Nick Malefyt

USA-6-1015
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 2 Replies: 50
Mr. Borja,

I think this forum will be a great resource that way. Especially if people share what they learn when they attend a seminar or tournament.

Nick


Post # 23
Top Sat 29th Mar 2008 10:53
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
If you all agree that those blocks are infact half facing in walking stance then for the past seven I have been doing it wrong. This of course is the fault of my instructor and also of our club for following what we thought was right.

Thank you all again.

I am indeed considering either joining another martial art or creating my own TKD school and not following the ITF.

Glen
Post # 24
Top Sat 29th Mar 2008 13:16
Michael Boik
Joined: 15/04/2007
Topics: 11 Replies: 35
Quote from Glen Jones - 29th Mar 2008 10:53 View
If you all agree that those blocks are infact half facing in walking stance then for the past seven I have been doing it wrong. This of course is the fault of my instructor and also of our club for following what we thought was right.

Thank you all again.

I am indeed considering either joining another martial art or creating my own TKD school and not following the ITF.

Glen
Why go to another MA? Why not look at it as a learning experience and go from there. You never stop being a student and should look forward to learning something new.
Mike

Taekwon!!

Mike

www.drysdaletkd.com

Post # 25
Top Sat 29th Mar 2008 13:26
Mr Snow

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Glen,
I hope this is ok to call you by your first name, I would ask you to think about it wisely you before quitting TKD you have worked hard to reach what ever grade you are.

If I may say - We were part of an org which we had many problems when we joined or rather affiliated to ITF as we found many problems like incorrect shoulder possitions, incorrect start possitions on blocks and bad machanics in kicking as we had no idea on how kicks worked in all truth ie we did not pivot etc, we also had many added or as Master Nicholls calls them extra movements or over exageration on tuls.

My point is if your instructor has failed you or it may be the instructor is following his seniors they may be at fault and out dated, Leave him or them if he refuses to see what you have found out and affiliate to another group who can help you.

There are many out there who are behind as they have left ITF 10 - 20 years ago if you want to move on find a club or org that lives by the teachings of the late founder. We are ITF but we see every day as we learn somthing new.

I personally dont think ITF is the be all and end all but I do see it as a product that has evolved over the years and we have only been ITF since 1999.

What ever you decide please think about it properly before quitting TKD altogether, I have seen many good Tae Kwon Do'ist pack up over the years - when you see them years l;ater they always say I wish I had continued.

What ever you decide choose wisely - making the wrong move is hard to change once done.

Regards
Chris
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 26
Top Sat 29th Mar 2008 14:30
user18082

USA-4-1030
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 6 Replies: 18
Quote from Glen Jones - 29th Mar 2008 10:53 View
If you all agree that those blocks are infact half facing in walking stance then for the past seven I have been doing it wrong. This of course is the fault of my instructor and also of our club for following what we thought was right.

Thank you all again.

I am indeed considering either joining another martial art or creating my own TKD school and not following the ITF.

Glen

Sir

I believe you got alot of good advice so far here on the board. Blaming Instructors, Masters, ourselves, or anyone else is a waist of time. What isn't a waist of time is trying to learn and improve on what we already have. Master Wheatley always says in his seminars "if the technique does not make sense to you, don't use it". I have trained with many great Instructors, Masters and Grand Masters. As they say "when in rome, do as the romans". So when I am training with them I do as they Say, I never question them in class,and only in private if I have a good long term relationship with them. I teach what I feel is correct and for the most part it is in line with the ITF. It is important to have an encyclopedia available, and also the DVD's. If you do not have the DVD's, you could look online for videos of patterns on you tube to help with positions and facings. Quiting is never the answer finding the truth is.
 
 
Respectfully
 
 
John Szostek
Post # 27
Top Sun 30th Mar 2008 00:31
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
I thank you all for your thoughts, I am only a 1st degree one of many thousands. Over the seven or so years I have questioned many things and been told not to say anything, Ai my age and health condition it is not a big deal what happens to me but I feel very sorry for newer and younger student that are just led up the garden path.

I have already had one fall out with my instructor because I asked how long before one of his 4th degrees would be able to take gradings.

Mr Keating is a 6th degree, former Australian coach. The club just won best overall club from over 100 people at the Victorian Championships.

If he doesn't know whats going on then who dose?

Far more information need to be put up on this web site for all to see, there deeds to be a bace for data not seminars who only reach some people. A seminar should be a follow up of learnings not a teaching device.

Thank you all again

Glen
Post # 28
Top Sun 30th Mar 2008 18:32
Nick Malefyt

USA-6-1015
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 2 Replies: 50
Glen,

I hope you decide to stay in the ITF. The ITF has a great training curriculum - one that touches on most areas of the martial arts. Many styles/schools don't offer such a well-rounded curriculum.

On creating your own system... for the most part, a majority of people who leave a system to "start their own" (especially at the lower level black belt ranks) never get to experience the higher levels of any martial art. They usually also always fail to provide their own students with a curriculum that makes the student want to stay - everyone needs an instructor.

An example of this last paragraph - let's say you are a 1st degree and, even if you decide to grade students to 1 rank below you, they won't stick around. Where do you think they will go when they are ready to grade for 1st Dan and you can't/won't do it? They will leave-to find a more qualified instructor. I have seen this many times. Not having technical material to pass on to your senior students is a bad reason to lose students. It just means you have decided to stop learning - or start making things up. The ITF has the curriculum in place. Please just keep this in mind.

As for seminars - I host seminars because I want to stay on top of what is going on in the ITF. This board will eventually (I imagine) be a great resource. But there is nothing like having a qualified ITF Master/Instructor (there are many qualified black belts at all levels) come to your school on a regular basis. For example there are at least 3 instructors here on the East Coast of the USA who rotate/discuss who will be next to bring out our instructor, Master Wheatley. He is pretty much on the other coast of the USA. I personally have Master Rai in New Jersey every November. Yes it gives me the opportunity to "follow-up" on learning material - but the real reason is to stay current on what the expectations of the organization are.

I am a 5th degree black belt with 28 years of experience (I have only been with the ITF since 1996). In our organization US-ITF I am one of the highest ranking instructors in our area and I still have lots to learn. Only by seeking out instructors "close to the source" can I do this. Keep in mind since all of the ITF splits each organization is still coming into their own - its part of their journey. And it is a learning experience for all. But we still have a great foundation and great leadership if you look at the experience of the board members.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth,

Nick
Post # 29
Top Sun 30th Mar 2008 21:03
Michael Munyon

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Speaking of Kihaps.......I just got back from competing in an open tournament in Gulf Breeze, Florida. During the forms competition I noticed that a lot of my competitors not only had a lot of interesting Kihaps in their patterns they also had other sound effects. I can not describe what they sounded like, but all I have to say was it was very interesting and entertaining. That's my way of politely saying it was strange.

I did two Kihaps in my pattern. I did Moon-Moo and won second place. I just did the Kihaps on the outward strike with knife hand while in the X-stance and at the end of the pattern I still yelled Moon-Moo. It went over pretty well.

My color belt students did the kihaps in the appropriate/ITF recommended locations and they felt good about them.

For open competition I highly recommend the kihaps in the tuls.

Just my opinion and observation.
Michael Munyon, VI Dan
US-ITF Armed Forces Director
Serving America, Armed Forces and the ITF
Post # 30
Top Sun 30th Mar 2008 23:34
Jon_Mackey

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Mr Jones,
Try not to have a knee jerk reaction to the fact that you have been doing the blocks differently for sometime.
I am just back from an IIC where our president, Master Choi Jung Hwa led us through 3 days of intensive tul training. I performed Toi Gye for him, and the opening movement - an palmok kaunde makgi, master Choi had me perform over and over as he was not 100% happy with it. This is the same block as in Chon Ji tul, I started Taekwon-Do training in 1987!
I could have knee jerked and got fed up with it as it is a simple block per se, but you have to take the positve out of it, as Mr Boik says, take it as something new that you have learned, something new to work on and perfect. When Master Choi returns to your Dojang in the future he will note the improvement. He has a fantastic ability of remembering individual students and their improvements, even though he has probably taught thousands!
For me it was an honour to have personal instruction from the President, I am glad to say that at the end of Toi Gye he was pleased with the performance!

On another note, i'm sure it will be posted up on the website soon enough, it was great to see everyone again, Mr Skyrme nice to see you again!
Also Mr Horan, I didn't realise it was you who helped with the instruction on Toi Gye - so a belated 'hand shake'
Next time I will come over and say hello properly.
I'll leave the rest to the official report, but in short Master Choi was amazing as usual.

Taekwon!
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 31
Top Tue 1st Apr 2008 08:13
Glen Jones

AUS-1-1124
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 4 Replies: 10
Sir's

Went to the dojang last night for a look, must saw I wasn't very excited!

Saw two white belts trying to do three step sparing, I just wanted to jump on the floor and help them. I now see that putting self inportance first is not the ITF Taekwondo way, nor should it be. I have studied the DVD Rom's took some time to find the facings but finaly did so.

Time to correct what I do wrong and move forward with the thing that has given me so much.

TAEKWONDO!!!!!!!

Thank you all again you are what its all about.

Glen
Post # 32
Top Tue 1st Apr 2008 14:08
Jon_Mackey

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Excellent news Mr Jones, onwards and upwards!

As we would say here in Ireland - ITF Abú!! (said with clenched fist in the air!)

Taekwon!
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 33
Top Tue 1st Apr 2008 17:24
Bob Borja

GER-6-1004
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Master Rai,

Good to hear from you, Sir.

Thank you for the insights on Kiya additions to Tuls.

It is wonderful to have Masters actually join in on Forum discussions.

Would have been great to meet you again last weekend at the GM Choi Jung Hwa -led IIC in Cork, Ireland.

 
Greetings from Germany.

 
Bob Borja  V
Germany


                                                           Vincit qui se vincit.                                                                  
                                             He conquers who conquers himself.                                                     

Post # 34
Top Wed 2nd Apr 2008 00:26
Mr Snow

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Mr Jones,
Good news that you are staying in the ITF FamilySmile, We all have doubts at some time in our carreers ask any of the seniors and they will probably say 'I have thought about leaving TKD behind in my time' but them majical tenets kick in and keep us here.

Perservearance and indomitabale spirit,Star

Just remember alone you can't change the world but you can make a difference, one way or another - if you put your mind to it.Thumbs Up

Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
WWW.UK-LTSI.COM
Post # 35
Top Fri 3rd Apr 2009 03:26
Bruce Kwan

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i have a question hope someone can tell !!
why the "kihap" just in Chon-ji to Ge-baek?
so "PE" to "TI" have "kihap" or not?

thank you!!
Taekwon!!
Post # 36
Top Sat 4th Apr 2009 19:26
Glenn Horan

GBR-7-1017
Joined: 04/12/2006
Topics: 1 Replies: 17
Hi Sir,

The Ki-hap's only went up to Ge-Baek originally, that's what GM Choi has explained. I think they will be done at a later date.

Regards.
Post # 37
Top Mon 6th Apr 2009 02:54
Jack Martin

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Hello,

To me the original ki-hap made ITF Students who were reserved, if you will, able to learn how to focus, mind, body and breath, such as the ki-hap in some instances. I believe they served a good purpose and was a good tool.

I think individuals got a little too "over the top" if you will making the ki-hap not sound ITF uniform as described by Master Rai and what General Choi saw that he didn't like and decided to curb them. However, ITF Taekwon-Do got quiet, if you will without the practice of the ki-haps. To me I would see reserved or shy Students actually not be able to express themselves such as when ki-haps should be utilized, self defense, breaking, scoring techniques when sparring, etc.

I personally am glad we are bringing them back and I look forward to relearning the role of the ki-hap and what General Choi meant for them to accomplish, such as in the tuls. It will be interesting to see the transition. Personally, I've gone from ki-haps, to no ki-haps, to the return of what President Choi remembers and is now returning back to the original ki-haps. I believe they are a benefit and done correctly, in our style and organization, will serve our Student/Instructors well.

My difficulty is going to be returning to them with memory. When they were removed, it took me quite a while not to be the only person doing the ki-hap in class with everybody else quiet. Fun stuff looking back at the roots of history and original foundation of our Founder's intent.

Taekwon!
Post # 38
Top Tue 19th May 2009 13:46
Bob Borja

GER-6-1004
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Hello,

I saw on the TV Show "Human Power" on DMAX Channel (digital Unity Media here in Germany) some weeks ago an experiment with a martial arts practitioner on breaking concrete slabs with and without Ki-Hap. The show concluded that Ki-Haps can add as much as 25 % more power to techniques.

Wish I had recorded it to play back to my students. If anyone knows where to find that material, perhaps on YouTube, please let me (us all) know. Thank you.

                                                           Vincit qui se vincit.                                                                  
                                             He conquers who conquers himself.                                                     

Post # 39
Top Fri 29th May 2009 18:23
CAROL VAN ZILE

USA-6-1019
Joined: 06/02/2007
Topics: 0 Replies: 1

I was also told that we were to do a Kihap on the first move of each pattern as well as the ones noted above.  Should we be including this as well.  we are already doing the kihaps in the patterns were noted.

C. Van Zile

Post # 40
Top Thu 4th Jun 2009 13:50
Master Rai

CAN-8-1001
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Ms. Van Zile

There should be no kihap on the first move

Master Rai
Master Parm Rai
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