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Master Raymond Choy

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Original Message Post # 1
Thu 17th Apr 2008 18:55
Jon_Mackey

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Not to over step my mark, but I've a few questions regarding Master Choy. I was just perusing his website when I noticed he's been elevated to 9th degree, and that he has introduced the 6th tenet of Taekwon-Do - Humility, which has been accepted internationally..?
Also in the main picture of the site, he's wearing an ITF Dobok, but I thought he left the ITF?
 
Can someone clarify for a nosey 3rd dan?
 
Thanks! Smile
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 2
Top Thu 17th Apr 2008 20:54
Mr Snow

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The 6th Tenet was somthing he spoke widly about when we were with him upto 2000, As to promotions I believe from 5th Dan they were all granted by his panel he has in place. He makes a big deal about the 8th being granted by the late founder but I have no idae on that one.

ITF Do-Bok many waering them now who are not ITF so I guess he has decided if you cant beat them - join them.

Funny that I was on his web today - Must be somthing in the air, Made me chucle loads esp the write ups from his instructors bet there well popular now. Evil Smile
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 3
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 17:36
Mark Skyrme

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From my understanding Master Choy’s 8th degree was granted by General Choi when the ITF was one. This was acquired with a great deal of  Master Choi Jung Hwa’s input and it all stems back to a ITF meeting held in 2002 when Master Tom Macallum (at the time ITF Secretary General) referred to him as Mr Choy as he was not in possession of an ITF Masters certificate. I may be wrong but I think he only ever held a status card, as the certificate had always been in dispute with ITF HQ.

That said he is still one of the pioneering Masters from the UK and many black belts can trace their origins from him and I believe his time in rank is more than adequate. As a group leader how else can one be promoted if not bestowed by your juniors, however this promotion is only credible within the promoting group and is often not recognised internationally. That’s the first I have heard of the 6th Tenet and I’m based in the UK let alone another country, but I was never a member of the BUTF. Personally Taekwon-Do has 5 tenets as laid down by the founder, why would anyone wish to change history and our foundations in such a manner.

He did resign from his post “Secretary General” and the ITF back in April 2003 and took the BUTF with him. He was also one of the biggest advocates in Non-ITF groups using the logo, vocally asking where there integrity was in claiming to part of something you don’t support?

Mr Snow is correct many groups make the same claim; the main reasoning behind these claims is “My school has an ITF Plaque”. As far as I’m aware the licence agreement that comes with those plaques is based on an annual subscription, and failure to purchase membership invalidates the plaque and it should be returned to the ITF. I have a copy of this agreement in the office and will try and upload it if you’re interested.

What with all the copyright issues being sort by all 3 ITF’s I feel it wont be long before these groups find themselves in legal proceedings for copyright infringement. As the ITF is an organisation I believe that they may even be an issue with trading standards, as wearing the badge indicates to your members that you are in membership of the ITF, but I’m no lawyer Wacko

I have read the article on there site, and from a marketing point of view personally feel that by showing all those that have left is detrimental to any past achievements but that’s only my personal point of view.

facile est inventis addere.
it is easy to add to things already invented.
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Post # 4
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 17:43
Michael Boik
Joined: 15/04/2007
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Being that Master Choy is independant, the ninth degree and the tenet are a BUTF thing. Others have claimed, as in Mr. Kirschbaum who claims to have had a secret meeting with Gen. Choi, and had been promoted to ninth dan by Gen. Choi. We'll probably see more Ninth dans with wild claims.
 
Mike
Taekwon!!

Mike

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Post # 5
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 18:30
Mr Snow

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Your definatly right Mr Skyrme about him being a pineering master, Seems he has helped many of our seniors in the UK - Well amazed by this fact but its good to see where the roots lie for many of those on the list, As to the plaque situation I have a recent one about a a few months old and one of the very original ones when ITF was one, The latest ones says it MUST be returned if we leave so I guess as we are ITF C now it will have to go back in feb 2009..... Boo hoo all the hassle to get it...

Errrrrr ..... We still use our original plaque hence the number is on or site.
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Post # 6
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 22:25
Jon_Mackey

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Thank you Mr Skyrme for that very detailed response to past events.
I also agree, who has the right to change the history of Taekwon-Do and add in extra tenets? There is only one man with the credibility to do that and that is the ITF President, Master Choi. Even he wouldn't tamper with that aspect of Taekwon-Do, besides Humility can under many of the existing tenets.
Thanks again.

Mr Snow, what is ITF-C? There is only one ITF Wink Tongue

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 7
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 23:05
Mr Snow

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Mr Mackey I agree 100% ....... Shall we go and tell the others to change there name? Hug
 
Do you think if we say please they will?LOL
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Post # 8
Top Fri 18th Apr 2008 23:33
Jon_Mackey

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Quote from Mr Snow - 18th Apr 2008 23:05 View
Mr Mackey I agree 100% ....... Shall we go and tell the others to change there name?

Others?? What others? :)

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
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