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ITF HARD CONTACT OR NOT!

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Original Message Post # 1
Mon 7th Apr 2008 15:21
Mr Snow

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Just returned from the Midland ITF opens, a good event to boot.... However we as you know hold events and TBH we are hard on excessive contact levels - We are more out for the leg fighters who are classy and tecniqal. Our members are increasingly wanting more ITF events so naturally we say OK lets try this one. The past 4 ITF events have been hard contact including the Midland ITF one now we done good, 1 Gold, 5 Silver, 4 bronze with 11 entered but we are of the opinion now if we are going into thse events we have to train for much harder contact levels.
 
The question do you agree ITF is harder contact or not!
 
Tae KwonSmile
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 2
Top Mon 7th Apr 2008 22:44
John Riordan

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It can be, but unfortunatly depends on which ring you happen to be in. Also it depends on how competent and confident the referee is. Hard contact is ok if technique is good and controlled but some referees jump in too soon and don't allow the fighters to express themselves. I don't agree with your point about "leg fighters" being more technical. To see a fighter throw the full array of hand techniques during a bout can be far more exciting to watch.
Post # 3
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 00:25
Mr Snow

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I agree to a point on your view but personally we run a rule of three punch maximum in our events so punch streight three times then you MUST kick at least once, Most the bouts I ran on Sunday and I believe it was all the 18+ Males BB's I was in contol but fair, I agree yes let them punch out but if the kicks are not fluently flowing then the competitors should concider boxing. Personally my expierance on ITF events is that some are very hard, even it is fair to say too hard. (General Choi Said in 1999 sparring was more like chicken fighting these days and he wanted things to change - He died before it happened) We run the South East Opens and yeh fights can be hard contact esp if its ITF V INDEPENDENT but we see much more control and leg fighting as we dont accept fighters just trying blatantly to batter there oponents.

I also refed Mr Gardners fight and that was fab and hard but I did warn them of the three punch rule I was using and no one argued it. I aint worried a bit as our members have done well even in excessive situations but we are starting to coach our members differently and saying at ITF events just hit hard and if you get DQ dont worry - but is that really the way forward. I have not refed for 2 years and yes I like to see a scrap but if they just punch thats not Tae Kwon Do is it?

Of course thats only my opinion on it. Ermm
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 4
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 10:19
Chris Peel

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I find this topic very interesting. I was also a ref at the Midlands comp and I am often accused of being too strict with contact. We are constantly told before comps. that we need to clamp down on contact, but then sometimes pulled up for not letting fights flow. I also sometimes hear people say that if both fighters are hitting hard then what's the problem. I am ail for playing rough in the club if both parties are happy, however comps are our shop window and I believe that it is not only the fighters that are affected by hard contact, but the children and families watching. It puts people off and parents get concerned about letting their children compete. I say this as both Instructor and parent. One of the best fights I have seen for many years was one of the very first fights at the Midlands comp just gone. It was between 2 female senior Black Belts, one from Ireland one from Hinckley. Techniques, both hands and feet, touched but with control. That was Tae Kwon Do at its best. As an Instructor and Ref I always welcome feedback as I want to improve, but you do get conflicting messages when it comes to being a ref.
Post # 5
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 10:43
Mr Snow

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Personally I thought Nick Gardners fight was great - Shame I had to ref it! It was very kicky and punchy but at times I fealt it was hard and I made both parties aware I wanted more control, But as Mr Peel said it is our shop window, Its a hard call really, we are hard on contact in the LTSI but we still llow so much contact and yes I even ask Master Harry sunday 'Are we following ITF rules or not' and he said don't be too strict..... Erm so as a ref we have to just do our best because if the rules are not set in concrete it can get hard to referee bouts.

I went to the UKGT event last year (ITF) and there it was silly in our opinion as NO contact at all, Our guys got hammered by refs for being too hard, then again we went to the UKTA (also ITF) london opens a month later and contcat was excessive so we had to put our heads down and fight harder.

So I guess it depends on the organisers, I enjoyed the event just wanted others imput on weather ITF is hard contact or is it the groups fault who organise it.
 
Heres an idea! Give me a couple of days I will put on You Tube the footage from the Midland ITF opens (I gota make the film for our web now) compare the South East Opens 08, London Opens and the Midland Opens footage and we will get users of the forum to say what event looked better as a spectator. ......... Now that will be interesting!!!!Wink

C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 6
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 21:41

Joined: 29/10/2008
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Ok, I've just watched my footage from the midlands open a couple of times before making my comment and I do think some refs can be a little over cautious in regards to the contact.

Not being naturally aggressive preferring to keep my opponents distanced with side kicks, picking off the odd point when the opportunity arises, I only use punches when opponents dash in close and even then itís as I try to gain distance to utilise my kicks again. When I do punch itís none of these big hay maker/ wild swings, theyíre flicked out as straight and controlled as possible.

During my first bout I was given a warning over the power of my punch (not the warning that I gave the ref a funny look over).
My opponent had just come in narrowly missing with a reverse side, but too close for me to execute a kick, so I delivered a quick straight punch to his exposed head guard. The ref shouted stop so I stopped, there was no big drive forward follow through with wild punches, it ended there. Nothing that I personally felt deserved a warning over (but thatís from looking at the footage now) maybe it was the fact that his head got knocked back slightly, but if heís coming forward fast then thatís naturally going to happen with my hand going in the opposite direction.

Punch crazy competitors do need to be controlled if all they do is drive their opponents out of the ring with the weight and power of their fists, just donít be too cautious about stopping a bout if you think thatís going to happen before it shows real signs of it actually happening.
Post # 7
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 22:28
Chris Peel

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Fair point Mr Scott and I look forward to watching the footage as I am sure I will learn something and improve. Do remember though that as a ref you make split second decisions and do not have video to watch over and over before making a decision. The amount of contact in a fight increases very quickly if you let one or two hard techniques go and before you know it it's a full contact fight. I have no problem with full contact fights just let's be honest in what we are promoting. If it's full contact call it so and we all know where we stand. If not and you want full contact go kick boxing.
Post # 8
Top Tue 8th Apr 2008 23:21
John Riordan

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Fair points all. 3 punch rule sounds good in theory but may be difficult to enforce. Maybe a minimum amount of kicks per round could work. We are very strict on contact with the kids as we aim to encourage as many as possible to compete and enjoy it safely. We do allow harder contact with seniors and i think the key thing for referees to watch for is if the technique is controlled or not, or if there is intent to deliberatly use excessive force.
Post # 9
Top Wed 9th Apr 2008 08:10
Mr Snow

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Three punch rule works but oftern as you say you get carried away and three punch becomes 4 or 5, Jamie if you are over 18 I probably was your ref and I hope I was fair, For me if the head tilts i warn them on contact, turning away or low kicking refusing to fight but being a ref is as stated a split second thing, it sounds like though you may have hit to the back of the head will have been why you may have been warned for not sure though. I recall having to get out the way fast as some of the BB's were quick and them mats made it very hard as kept seperating. We only use interlocking mats but again we have had problems esp when we got them as they were very slippery now they are better as being used three times a year.

I will make the video today and put the links up for various comps - I have to admit some of the footage of my guys they too are hitting hard. Embarrassed
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 10
Top Wed 9th Apr 2008 13:30

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No Mr Snow I wasnít on your ring. The ref on mine was fair, being unbiased in his decisions and just as consistent in regards to the contact administered by my opponents as well as the rest of the competitors on his ring. Explaining what he expected before each bout.

I was commenting on peoples perception of excessive force, I donít watch my footage to dispute a call made by the ref, as already stated itís a split second decision, its more to aid with the development of my techniques and their application during competitions.
I only mentioned that Iíd watched it a couple of times as I didnít want to come across as someone who just writes down comments for the sake of it without an example.


But you do have to remember that this is a 'contact' sport, semi or not, and you should expect to be caught by something within a 2 minute time frame, itís in its nature.
Post # 11
Top Wed 9th Apr 2008 19:29
Chris Peel

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I do like this subject, because contact is subjective there will always be a difference of opinion. I am glad your ref was unbiased Mr Scott he sounds very good. A few years ago TKD power held a ITF full contact evening that I and a few others attended. Although the evening was good there was only one decent fight all night. Competitors seemed to hold back and they didn't flow with exciting techniques which we see in semi contact fights. I have never fought full contact so I can only presume fighters are cautious as they know each technique is intended to knock you out. Although I do know we have ITF fighters who do compete in kickboxing fights
Post # 12
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 01:05
Mr Snow

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Jamie,
I will explain so we are clear, My initial post was about the contact levels in ITF events, You get groups billing events as light continious or even touch sparring, The problem is you oftern turn up thinking well contact will be ok and your members have to dig deep to win as the bouts are excessive, Now days we say to our members play it by ear if the ref allows contact and your opponent is trying to knock you out give it back and this has helped our returns in medals to date. The problem is now days it is common to see,

I have been in TKD since Jan 1886 and believe me I have seen light and hard contact bouts and I have been in them in tournaments and in the club (I know as I have lost 10 teath and been knocked out from them), but more so in ITF, Even at our events we have hard bouts I have made a demo video that you can view and see what I mean. It all goes down to the ref, if he is no good then it can get messy, If the group running the event dont inforce the rules set again it can get messy.
 
A good example of what I am saying will be posted in the morning which is my demo film caught at the last two events.... Check back then and give your opinion.Ying Yang
 
For the record I was very fair with my warnings and unbiassed, God knows I had possibly one of the hardest cardio work outs in ages as them guys kept me on my toesTongue.
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 13
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 08:19
Mr Snow

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Right you are folks have a look at at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eicelLO2cuw
Last thing on this matter it could just be that the members are more agressive these days.

BTW: This video will be used at LTSI future umpire courses hence why I have taken the time to make it. Let me know what you think.
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 14
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 08:20
Mr Snow

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Right you are folks have a look at at this video  www.youtube.com/watch?v=eicelLO2cuw
Last thing on this matter it could just be that the members are more agressive these days.

BTW: This video will be used at LTSI future umpire courses hence why I have taken the time to make it. Let me know what you think.
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 15
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 09:02
Mr Snow

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Funny thing, I got an e-mail today from another coach saying have you visited the Rayners Lane Site, so I dId, Now this group tend to be very agressive in sparring yet they say in there recent report  'Seems sombody forgot to say it was a touch contact tournament'  We bill it as an ITF styled event so there has to be contact but how much is down to the Refs.Big smile
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Post # 16
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 11:56
sean mullin

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Quote from Mr Snow - 10th Apr 2008 01:05 View
Jamie,
I will explain so we are clear, My initial post was about the contact levels in ITF events, You get groups billing events as light continious or even touch sparring, The problem is you oftern turn up thinking well contact will be ok and your members have to dig deep to win as the bouts are excessive, Now days we say to our members play it by ear if the ref allows contact and your opponent is trying to knock you out give it back and this has helped our returns in medals to date. The problem is now days it is common to see,

I have been in TKD since Jan 1886 and believe me I have seen light and hard contact bouts and I have been in them in tournaments and in the club (I know as I have lost 10 teath and been knocked out from them), but more so in ITF, Even at our events we have hard bouts I have made a demo video that you can view and see what I mean. It all goes down to the ref, if he is no good then it can get messy, If the group running the event dont inforce the rules set again it can get messy.
 
A good example of what I am saying will be posted in the morning which is my demo film caught at the last two events.... Check back then and give your opinion.Ying Yang
 
For the record I was very fair with my warnings and unbiassed, God knows I had possibly one of the hardest cardio work outs in ages as them guys kept me on my toesTongue.

Post # 17
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 11:58
sean mullin

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training since JAN 1886!!!. i thought i took my time between gradings but it seems you have just  taken it to another level.LOL
Post # 18
Top Thu 10th Apr 2008 12:10
Mr Snow

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Funny you should say that, Only yesturday I was saying to a 2nd Dan that it took me 6 years to get 1st Dan, He has only been with me 6 years. I was saying they progress fatster now days.

I also met a guy recently who was same grade as me 5th Dan and only done 10 years which through me off my chair, A rival guy I know started a year ofter me and he is now a 7th Dan but he is independent NON ITF promoted by his three 2nd Dans. YEH RIGHT!!!!Shocked

There are those who have done longer then me though, I am just a patient man I think.... Approve
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Post # 19
Top Fri 11th Apr 2008 10:05

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[quote name='Mr Snow' date='10th Apr 2008 01:05 post='1~81546'#] Jamie,

A good example of what I am saying will be posted in the morning which is my demo film caught at the last two events.... Check back then and give your opinion.Ying Yang

Post # 20
Top Fri 11th Apr 2008 10:05

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Iíve just watched the footage and in my opinion:

(1st bout) probably not one I would of included as it was a David Vs Goliath match.

The Asian guy did try using some leg techniques but you can see that his midsection was level with the other guyís thigh, so his sidekicks wouldnít have scored anyway. He did use a couple of good reverse turning kicks as well, again they would have been more effective against an opponent more his size.
Iíd of said in that situation youíd have to have been more aggressive in a bid to score points without letting the other guy use his reach advantage.

(2nd) no problems there

(3rd) little scrappy when close in with the punches, not what Iíd call hard contact though

(4th) one or two of the punches might have had a bit too much power in them but they werenít swinging wildly or looked scrappy.

(5th) another one Iíd probably of missed out as their low grades just learning to perform the techniques and it could even be their first competition. (I used to put a lot of power in to the kicks back then, not to hurt the other guy, just to actually try and execute the kick as it didnít feel natural when I first started.)

You can see the guy in the red head guard was only comfortable with doing turning kicks off his right foot, just hope the ref picked up on the ones he was delivering to the other guys back because of this.

(6th) bit silly going in for the grab, but the ref had it covered.

(7th) No probs there.

(8th) Used techniques like you wanted to see, the flurry of punches to the mid section would have been more annoying than anything else. It was just unfortunate that the guy got caught with the reverse turning, more the momentum of the kick than aggression Iíd say.

(9th & 10th) no probs there either.


Maybe people perceive opponents getting in close using their hands as hard contact. when it could actually just be a case of them being scrappy & trying to score quick points with no technique?
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