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Times between dans

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Original Message Post # 1
Sun 16th Mar 2008 22:12
Jon_Mackey

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Hi everyone,
 
Can anyone tell me the official ITF system of waiting times between dans and what effect completing IIC's has on the waiting time. I'm hearing conflicting stories at the moment.
 
Thanks in advance
TK
Jon
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 2
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 13:46
Master Rai

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The usual policy is as follows but I am aware Master Wheatley is preparing a report which will be disclosed to all on the web site very soon.

The usual wait time between rank depends on the degree aplied for. Example, Usually to get 2nd dan, you should have 1.5 years as 1st dan, To get 3rd dan you should have 2 years as 2nd dan and so on. For 4th dan you should have 3 years as a 3rd dan So for 6th dan you should have 5 years as a 5th dan. Keep in mind this is only a guide line. The ITF takes other things into consideration while then applicant applies such as what as he/she done for the promotionof ITF, community service, and travel to such events as the worlds, seminars etc.

As far as IIC courses are concerned. The first IIC course counts towards 6 months off promotion. Any subsequent course is 3 months off. However only one course can be used per rank.

For example, if you are 1st degree and take your 1st IIC course, you can test 6 months earlier. When you become a 2nd degree and you take another IIC course, you can take another 3 months off towards your 3rd dan. If you take a 2nd IIC course while you are a 2nd dan, you cannot add the 2 courses to make 6 months off but still use the 3 months off.

I hope this is clear.

Taekwon

Master Rai
Master Parm Rai
Post # 3
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 15:12
Jon_Mackey

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Thank you Master Rai, that clears it up prefectly. I look forward to Master Wheatley's report in time.

Thanks again for your time.
TK
Jon
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 4
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 15:19
Mr Snow

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Master Rai,
You stated that for 6th Dan the ITF take into consideration what applicants have done for promotion of ITF, will the promotion panel look at all circumstances with independant views?

I am a 5th Degree and have been practicing TKD since Jan 86, I personally have never been out of the UK for seminars due to not being able to finnance such luxeries. I have done a few courses including one with G.M.Rhee IX dan. We also host ITF seminars with UK Masters to aid our progression.

I run a small organisation about 400 members my concern is if it all depends on courses others like me could face staying at there current ranks.

We do many things even charity based but looking at the post I am thinking this could stub my personal progression, Will this be the case?.

Please dont take offence as this is just a querry weather or not the promotion panel looks at all cases independantly and fairly.

Thank you sir
Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 5
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 16:24
Jon_Mackey

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Not to pre-empt Master Rai's response but I think he was stating that time off between dans is considered by the ITF if the applicant has worked hard in other fields promoting ITF Taekwon-Do. Travelling to courses etc is not necessary for applying for promotion, once your time has been served.
All the best

TK
Jon
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 6
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 16:56
Mr Snow

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argh now i understnd, i am sure there are 1000's who cant make courses for same reasons just thought i would clarify,
thanks
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Post # 7
Top Mon 17th Mar 2008 18:13
Jon_Mackey

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I'm nearly sure I'd be one of them Wink
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde
 
 
Post # 8
Top Tue 18th Mar 2008 12:10
Master Rai

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Mr. Snow

The ITF understands if one cannot attend seminars due to other commitments. They are encouraged so the student can progress and also make new friends and strengthen relationships that exist. Sometimes, a peer can recommend promotion due to his/her knowledge of the instructor. It's an overall picture that is looked at not just seminars. I hope this helps. Keep up the good work.

Taekwon
Master Parm Rai
Post # 9
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 00:45
Mr Snow

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Thanks Sir for your imput, I do my best to attend those in the UK like the last time I saw yourself and G.M.Choi that was in stratford and taught me loads, We left ITF-C for a year and have now returned after getting burnt pretty badly. All we want to do is train, progress and evolve.

It is hard esp when instructors have kids and they teach full time and run there own groups. No time in the day as always doing somthing connected to TKD. People don't realise how much work goes in when organising events esp if doing it on ya own.

I hope to make more courses but forsee it will always be on UK soils as I have to always put my family first like any decent person.

Thanks for your reply Sir
Respectfully Yours in Tae Kwon Do
Chris
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Post # 10
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 16:05
user18082

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I have a question sort of related to this topic. Do you think students, and Instructors should test as soon as there minimum time has elapsed? I have been in ITF from white belt. I have tested within that time on very few occasions. My last dan testing being one of them. The way I came up was, that you were ready when your instructor said you were ready to test. And it was never at the minimum time. The minimum time was for elite martial artist. Ones that won world Championships attended many course and supported many events, But most importantly, ones that trained regularly, not just teach. Now I am not the greatest martial artist by far, but I am better then some, and not as good as many others. But I am seeing more and more regularly student and Instructors telling others "my testing time is up I will be testing soon". In my dojang my students do not even know the concept of minimum testing time (Don't know if this is good or bad), they test when I think they have reach the highest standard I think they could achieve.

I guess I feel that so many of us want to just move through the ranks and care far less about trying to be the best we could be where we are. An Instructor I train with says giving me a higher belt will not make me better, only training will make me better. I was recently at a tournament and an Instructor younger then I there ask me why I was competing. I told him it was a good self challenge for me to go up against others to see what, and where I am lacking in my training compare to other. He told me all he does is teach now and go to seminars. Now should an Instructor who teaches and just goes to seminars a few times a year test at the minimum time for his rank? I agree they should test, but why the rush for everyone to test at the minimum time?

I have also seen students and instructors who have disappeared for a period of time and return asking when they could test after training a few months.

Is anyone else seeing this as well?

Respectfully

John Szostek
Post # 11
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 17:28
Nick Malefyt

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Dr. Szostek,

My opinion - time is one factor another would be the person's ability to meet the requirements the organization has set forth. Another would be the contribution the person has made to Taekwon-Do and, in my opinion, to their contribution to the organization(s) to which they belong.

I would differ on 2 of your points though...

1) I do not see how winning a World Championship would have anything to do with with meeting requirements for rank advancement? I am not trying to take anything away from such a huge accomplishment. I am simply saying I don't see where that would make a difference as to a person's "minimum" time.

2) On the teaching verses training issue I don't think every instructor stops "training" just because they are teaching? The real question I personally think needs to be asked is - based on the person's committments (family/work/financial stability) is the person doing what they can to spread Taekwon-Do, to continue to progress in the art, and do they possess the skills needed to move on so they can learn new material? I do agree that getting another belt does not make you better -only training does - and we must always remember that we are all forever students!

Again these are just my opinions - bottom line in my mind is that a student's "instructor" (or even other ITF Master's) should recognize a persons contributions and recommend them for the privledge of grading only if they feel the person is ready. Otherwise a person should not grade. Like at your school the ultimate decision rests in the hands of the instructor (and the organization/examiner) - and being given the privledge of being able to grade should not mean automatically passing.

Nick Malefyt
Post # 12
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 18:59
Master Rai

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Taekwon

Just to lighten things up. I remember years, years ago when I was a yellow belt, a co-student asked my instructor, Master Lee Sukhi if he could grade. Master Lee's responce was "you are a bad student don't ever come back, Taekwon-Do is not for you.

I learned never ask for grading, Your instructor knew best for you, when he/she felt you were ready, you graded. Back then grading was an honour. I still believe it is an honour today.

Only my opinion.
Master Parm Rai
Post # 13
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 19:26
user18082

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Mr. Malefyt

As per our conversation a few moments ago. I will explain why I say world champions. My statement / thought was geared toward a Patterns World Champion but sparring can also be assumed as true. I have had the opportunity to train with a patterns world champion. I have had the opportunity to see how he trained. This type of training and dedication surpasses what most of us think as of as training. For him to prepare for nationals then worlds is a full year of non stop training with the sole goal of perfection of technique. He was probably the most talented Instructor I have ever seen. Not just by God given talent but by determination and hard work. Plus he did all the other things we need to look at for someone to grade to the next belt. He raised money for charities, he taught a large successful school, he had himself and his students do community service. Because he trained so hard all the time all aspects of TKD were way above standard. His step sparring, fundamental technique, sparring and self-defense were all complimented from his training.

This is the type of person I picture when I hear about someone testing at the minimum time.

On the training verses teaching front. I disagree here sir. Training is not teaching, and teaching is not training. They are both very important to our TKD progression. I do feel that they are different in we can become stagnant in just teaching and having nobody correct our technique. We fall into the trap that we know as much as we need too for our students. Teaching on the other hand is very important because it reinforce the knowledge we already have. But I think when we train with others and our instructor it inhanceses our teaching. We do not fall into the same old routine in classes. Training also improves our physical fitness and our personal ability. I think the encyclopedia has a breakdown of how many classes are need in-between each rank. It also gave credit to classes taught, but they were not equal.


Respectfully


John Szostek
Post # 14
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 19:36
user18082

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Master Rai

I feel the same way. I do see some time that in this day and age that instructors sometimes feel obligated to test his students because of the business side of TKD. The fear of loosing the student. I happen to be lucky enough to not teach for money. So this does situation does not normally arise in my school. When it does it is usually a parent asking when there child can grade. The answer is still the same when I fell they are ready.

Mr. Snow I have never tested any of my black belts. They have had the privilege and honor to be tested by some of the great Masters in our organization.


Respectfully


John Szostek
Post # 15
Top Wed 19th Mar 2008 21:53
Joel Ashley Wilson

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my small input is that time allowance between dans was simply put as the period between Dan grades but that does not matter if you motives are not suitable and you are not promoting the art properly.

for my last Dan grading, i clearly remember being asked two questions that stood out after taking my grading the previous week. now the examiner already knew what we had done and our future intentions as we had listed it in our assignment papers.

1. "What Have you done since your last Dan grade?"
i remember that the grading was just before a national championship tournament and everyone was asked
2. "who will be attending?"

this was a good test after "the test" to test the real merit of the student (sorry about the tests!) and whether they meant what they had wrote down.

we weren't even asked if we would compete, some answered that they would turn up to help out, thats all was expected of us, going beyond the norm where possible.

unfortunately certain people didn't pass due to ability and attitude because we've all witnessed Masters turning up first and leaving last at events and even worse at tournaments as they can't even compete due to grade!

i believe the grading times are a good protocol to have as it gives the student a time scale to work with. nothing worse than having no goal to aim for & continuously guessing when you can grade. that will only cause frustration and will lead to students asking "when can i grade?"

i know that from now to my next grading i need to step up my ability and training in order to meet the standards required and continue to do as much as i can do within my financial bracket. the time scale is just there to remind me that grading is always catching up with me and to train harder!
this is the beginning of something special
Post # 16
Top Thu 20th Mar 2008 01:00
Nick Malefyt

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Dr. Szostek,

I see what you are saying on the first point and I agree that the individual you are speaking about is one of those "one of a kind" type of practitioners. But I still say that being a World Champion (again a huge accomplishment) in one or even two areas does not make you proficient at every aspect of the training composition of Taekwon-Do. But you and I can go back and forth on that all day :>)

I guess on point number two I am fortunate to have another 5th degree black belt to train with on a weekly basis. Typically we switch on and off in terms of who is "teaching". But regardless we both "train" in 90% of the classes and we each do what the other person is teaching - so we really don't fall into a pattern that way. But I do need to keep a more open mind in terms of instructors that are not fortunate enough to have a "training partner" or higher ranked Instructor that spend all of their time teaching verses training. So I see your point there as well.

See you in PA (for Master Wheatley's seminar) in a few weeks,

Nick Malefyt
Post # 17
Top Thu 20th Mar 2008 02:49
Michael Munyon

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Greetings,

It's funny to see how many of us share the same root feelings on this topic.

1. Students shouldn't ask when they can test.
2. Physical and mental ability of TKD must be present
3. Contributions to the art/organization

I've seen people test very late because in their minds it makes a statement that they are something extra special to admire. So and so waited longer then needed so I guess that makes he better or special. I've also seen folks test early. In some cases I personally found it justified. In other cases I wondered what the instructor was thinking.

During my years of training in several martial art systems and several organizations (probably more then most on this board) the quality control and time lines have varied. In some arts they test every 2 years regardless of what Dan rank you are. Many folks would also jump around from orgnaization to organization to get rank faster. This is obviously an integrity issue.

I feel that time lines have a purpose and part of it is to motivate students to train hard knowing that their instructors and organization wishes to see them achieve their goal of promoting to the next rank.

Is rank necessarily a symbol of one's ability or is it something to show how long a person has been training in a particular martial art?

My opinion is that it should be up to the instructor to decide who should test and when. It's not other students in the school or other students from other schools within the organization. Especially those junior in rank and don't train day to day with the individual.

On a bright side......I'm looking forward to seeing my friends in PA and NJ in April and my other friends in MI come June.

Taekwon!
Michael Munyon, VI Dan
US-ITF Armed Forces Director
Serving America, Armed Forces and the ITF
Post # 18
Top Thu 20th Mar 2008 09:21
Mr Snow

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Regarding students demanding rank as soon as they have done the time : This will always happen esp if you run a big school with 100 plus members in.

This is oftern the case with my St Albans school which when members say 'Sir I have done my time now' I say good for you but when you have met the standards you can promote. Always makes them go and think about asking again. Most wait for me to say you are ready to promote now.

We use a computer program called 'Martial Arts Organiser' when the members are due, After they scan in for class the program flashes up a screen and lets them know times up. Then most will say am I ready now sir - A simple yes or no works as well.

Just my thoughts again :-)


Mr Szostek

Mr. Snow I have never tested any of my black belts. They have had the privilege and honor to be tested by some of the great Masters in our organization.

Sir, If you do not grade your own Black Belts thats good for you and your choice - We run as an independent group in an ITF group so we are affiliated only but we incorporate ITF 100%,

We do not have the luxery of senior Masters to grade our BB's so we have a panel that puts the members through a 5 Hour exam twice a year. BB is only allowed once they have done the MOCK exam 6 weeks before. If the standards ever dropped I would stop BB Exams but as all Masters that have done Seminars for us to date have complimented the standards we are happy with doing the exams ourselves.

Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 19
Top Thu 20th Mar 2008 09:31
Mr Snow

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No doubt some will ask how it takes so long on our Exams so to clarify:

1 Hour written exam Q & A, 8 sheets including what TKD has done for them
All patterns shown by all candidates
All Set sparring learnt to date
20 random Self Defence attacks - Inc floor attacks
5 rounds of sparring pads on
2 Rounds of sparring pads off
5 breaks (Base Kicks if they mess up requirements)

Breaks - Jump side left and right for 1st Dan (Base if they dont break)
Jump Turn left and right for 2nd Dan
Jump Reverse turn for 2nd Dans L/R
360 Jump Back for 3rd Dans

Tae Kwon
C.R.SNOW 5TH DEGREE
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Post # 20
Top Thu 20th Mar 2008 11:22
Joel Ashley Wilson

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those breaks are similar to ours.
for 1st dan, standing side on both legs, turning kick on both legs and reverse punch with both hands
2nd dan, high section jump reverse turning kick both legs, high section jump turning kick both legs.
3rd Dan was 360 jump back kick with both legs (i think there is an optional hand break for 2nd and 3rd including the kicks)
i think 4th Dans and above have ITF breaks.

Mr Snow,
is "2 vs 1" part of your pads off sparring in the black belt grading syllabus?
taekwon
this is the beginning of something special
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